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ACM Special Interest Group on Hypertext, Hypermedia and the Web The Hypertext Community Interview Series
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Interview With Peter Nürnberg – Xtructure LLC, former SIGWEB Chair

Claus Atzenbeck:
What is your current primary research interest?
Peter Nürnberg:
My current primary interest is emergent behavior in networks or collectives. When we look at hypermedia research, even very early on, we see discussions of data, structure and behavior. It is easy to see how much of computer science is focused on data. One characteristic of hypermedia research, from Bush onward, was a recognition of the importance of structure. Still, this has often been a sort of "static" structure. We have not really considered behavior or very highly dynamic structure, not just in terms of its creation and deletion, but its computational characteristics. Even in Halasz's famous set of research issues from two decades ago, computation in and over networks was a primary theme. But we seem to have made little headway here.

For inspiration, I think we can look at other areas in which structure has recently enjoyed a period of greater recognition, and see if we can borrow some of their insights into behaviors of the structures they study. From anthropology to sociology to biology to robotics, we see people beginning to study not only structures of people, animals, robots, etc., but the behaviors that arise from them when they are part of collectives. These behaviors are often complex and even counter-intuitive. For example, not only is an ant colony not an ant, but it's difficult for us to understand how the behavior of an ant colony derives from the behaviors of ants. I think hypermedia researchers could begin to address the "behavior" part of the data-structure-behavior triad by taking inspiration from other fields that look at the computational behavior of hypertexts.

Claus:
Please tell us about your vision in this field of research.
Peter:
These are still very early days for emergent behavior, especially taken from a hypermedia point of view. This makes it difficult to see very far down the road. I hope that we can start building intuitive and powerful formalisms to describe emergent behavior. For me personally, without these types of formalisms, I cannot really understand the underlying phenomena. But it is important to see how difficult the creation of such formalisms can be. I don't believe we even have the vocabulary to talk about collective behaviors yet, so formalizing them is not really a near-term goal. First, we must gain experience in dealing with these behaviors and agree on some set of terminology for describing them. After this, we can move on to formalisms, which I think will really open up the area.
Claus:
How has hypertext influenced your work?
Peter:
Before coming to hypermedia, I was interested in theory – algorithms, complexity, etc. Hypermedia was the first time I really worked with a user in mind. Theory, by its nature, is abstract and apart from any particular user or use case scenario. It was somewhat of an adjustment for me to consider people in my work! I think over the years, I've tried to move closer to user-driven work. This move has been due in part to hypermedia work I've read and that has inspired me.
Claus:
Would you briefly outline how your personal view of hypertext has evolved over time?
Peter:
In many ways, we have not even achieved the vision that Bush articulated more than 60 years ago. The technology we have, both hypermedia and otherwise, is certainly shinier than it was 60 years ago, but I'm not sure we've really made a giant conceptual leap forward. We are still very data-centric users of very data-centric systems.

I hope that we can build good systems with hypermedia, not just shiny ones. A good system is one that works like the user works. We are always very ready to adapt to the machine instead of building a machine that adapts to us. When I read Bush or Engelbart or the other early pioneers of hypermedia, I see a vision for exactly this type of system – one that adapts to us. Frankly, we've made little progress on this front.

The problem lies mainly with our inability to break the conditioning we have undergone, the conditioning that has led us to believe that machines work a certain way, and we as users must adapt to that way. This conditioning is not simply due to computers, though they certainly play their part. In this time, in which new technologies are being invented and brought to user bases very rapidly, we are constantly confronted with "beta versions" of technologies that are not yet polished and do not adapt to us.

Of course, the Web is now a ubiquitous technology. Many people see this as a great victory for hypermedia. I do not. I think the Web is a fantastic tool that has changed the way we work and even the way we think. But it does not seem a great leap forward in terms of structure-oriented systems. The Web is, first and foremost, a content delivery vehicle. Structure in the Web is an afterthought, existing almost solely in the mind of the user (effected by the artifacts of navigation.) This is not a technological argument – it revolves around the way the Web is actually used. The weak link is still the conditioned human user. Some of the "killer apps" of the Web, like Google, as useful as they are, are exactly the type of application Bush wanted to move past (or to augment, however you choose to interpret Bush's writings.)

So, for me, the last 60-odd years have been a slow and laborious journey toward realizing this brilliant vision of knowledge management and information organization systems geared to work as people work. There still seems a long way to go. However, I do not see this as a bad thing. It keeps hypermedia researchers in business! Also, the most rewarding days are ahead of us.

Claus:
If you had the choice, would you dis-invent any technological advancement?
Peter:
What a tricky question! I suppose there are two simple answers to this. The first is to say: "Technology is not bad – only the users of technology are. Therefore, I wouldn't dis-invent anything." While asserting that technology is inherently morally neutral is true at some level, I also find this unsatisfying.

The second answer is to say: "I would dis-invent (insert technology here), because it has caused such great evil in the world." Common technologies to name here might be the atom bomb or automatic weapons, or even something like alarm clocks. (Think how much happier people would be if they would just get enough sleep!) The problem with this is that it is very hard to see all the implications of dis-inventing a technology, just as it is hard to see the implications of inventing one. I remember the effect of a microwave oven installed at an office in which I worked many years ago on the social life of the office. After the arrival of the microwave, people didn't go out to eat as often, meaning we spent more time together in the lunch room. This was a very fortunate unforeseen consequence of the microwave.

So, if I ever had this opportunity, I'd probably not take it, for fear of really messing things up. But, since I won't ever have this opportunity, I can take my best guess and say that I'd dis-invent cars. I bought a car when I moved back to the US, after a decade of not having one while living in Europe. I'd be happy to give mine up again, but with the huge number of cars in the US, there's no impetus to create replacements for cars. Only the mighty dis-inventing magic wand could fix this problem!

Claus:
Have you noticed a focus change of the hypertext community since you became active in this field?
Peter:
Yes. It seems, as a field, that we've lost touch with the original hypermedia vision articulated by the early pioneers. I'm unhappy to see the amount of work that is branded as hypermedia work, but is actually other work placed in a pseudo-hypermedia setting. There is nothing wrong with search optimization, for example, but search optimization on the Web often has little to do with hypermedia. I think losing this original vision has left the field badly damaged. As Uffe Wiil pointed out in his 2005 Hypertext closing keynote, it is time once again for a unifying vision to drive the field forward. Will that vision be building associative systems, augmenting the human intellect, constructing the docuverse, engineering the Web, or some other vision? I hope we don't forsake the early work. I think the vision there was truly compelling.
Claus:
What is special about hypertext? What role does hypertext have within computer science?
Peter:
When I teach, I find that most of my students are very "machine-oriented" computer scientists. I try to give these students an appreciation of how little, in a paradigmatic sense, computers have changed in the last 60 years. For example, how great an improvement in programming language design is Java versus Fortran? Both languages take the machine's basic (abstract) architecture as their starting point. Both require the programmer to think in terms of how the machine works. The biggest difference is that, in the 1950's, this requirement was more defensible. Machines were new, compiler technology was in its infancy, and we didn't know how to program in the large yet. Now, computers have been around for decades, compiler technology is pretty well figured out, and we have decades of experience in large software projects. Why can't we build programming languages from the theoretical picture of what a programmer should do, and build a very clever compiler to translate this into something the machine can understand? (Of course, there is much good work being done in this area – still, with a few notable exceptions, there is not much paradigm-shifting work in programming language design. Where such work is done, it often has yet to reach the mainstream.)

For me, hypermedia was the first exposure I had to computer science research that worked from the human back toward the machine. It is certainly not the only such field, but it is a good example of one. I find that explaining the Bush Memex versus traditional IR systems a good way of introducing this concept to students.

I think that hypermedia is more than just HCI. For example, association-based systems do not stand in opposition only to automated IR systems. They offer an alternative to the way in which information has been organized for centuries. When faced with placing books within a library, we need some external system to facilitate this process. We can place them alphabetically, or by LOC subject number, or by color and size. In all of these examples, we have to use a "one size fits all" a priori organization scheme. But human brains don't work this way (or not exclusively, anyway.) Bush's association-based Memex is an attempt to break the tyranny of exclusive, a priori organization. I think this as grand a vision as I've ever heard inside computer science.

Claus:
What is your take on future developments in hypertext? What one thing would you most like to see in hypertext?
Peter:
I would like to see the field find a unifying vision like the ones described by Wiil. As John Leggett suggested in his 1998 ACM Hypertext closing keynote, I'd like that vision to be built collaboratively by the many different sub-communities we have in our field. I would like to see us acknowledge the importance of the early pioneers. I believe that we will do all of these things, though I'm unsure when or in what setting.
Claus:
What will be the next big thing in IT technology in general?
Peter:
The thing that is so satisfying to me about working in computer science is that there is no really authoritative way to answer this type of question. I could say wearable computers or 4G mobile phones or social networking Web sites, but the fact is, it might be holographic, three-dimensional Tamagotchi!
Peter J. Nürnberg is a Managing Partner of Xtructure, LLC, a company founded in 2002 to provide network modeling and simulation tools. He received his M.S. (1994) and Ph.D. (1997) in Computer Science at Texas A&M University, working on hypermedia and structural computing infrastructures. He spent two years at the University of Aarhus, Denmark, before moving to Aalborg University Esbjerg, Dennmark. He also spent one year at Graz University of Technology, Austria. He has served as Chair of SIGWEB (2003-2006), Program Chair of ACM Hypertext 2006, General Chair ACM Hypertext 2000 and of ACM Digital Libraries 2000, and an Associate Editor of ACM Transactions on the Web.
M: D Lunn on 20 Jun 2007
C: D Lunn on 20 June 2007